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Red Sox lose again, who will replace Bobby V?

September 6, 2012 By

While everyone was watching the Giants-Cowboys NFL regular season opener and then sleeping, the Red Sox lost 2-1 to the Mariners out in Seattle. The team finished their nine-game road trip by losing eight of nine games. The team is off today before hosting the Blue Jays for a weekend series at Fenway Park, which is sure to be interesting as as the Blue Jays manager is John Farrell and he is the man who was connected to the managerial opening last winter. The Red Sox might be interested in going after again this offseason.

The biggest story of the day came off the field, with Bobby Valentine losing his cool on WEEI’s Big Show, which was well documented by Bruce yesterday afternoon.

Strain shows in Valentine’s words- Peter Abraham says the stress of the season is starting to takes its toll on Valentine.

Bobby Valentine in misery- Michael Silverman also looks at Valentine and his comments on WEEI.

Bobby Valentine down for count- Gordon Edes says Valentine’s comments show he is on his way out of town after the season.

Will Red Sox get their man in Farrell this time?- Nick Cafardo wonders if the Red Sox can get Farrell to come back to Boston. He says he will be the teams’ number one choice to replace Valentine.

Why the Red Sox should take another run at John Farrell- From yesterday, Rob Bradford also thinks the Red Sox will push very hard to get Farrell to come back to Boston.

Red Sox need more Bill James?- Dan Shaughnessey touches on a number of subjects in his column today, including Bill James, and yes, the Patriots’ new media work room.

One more lost year for Ryan Kalish- Silverman also looks at Ryan Kalish’s season, one which has been limited due to injuries and once again hurting his development.

The Patriots open their regular season this Sunday at Tennessee, and for Boston sports fans it can not come soon enough, especially with everything going on with the Red Sox.

Double coverage on tap- Michael Whitmer looks at the McCourty twins facing one another this Sunday.

Brady prepares for unknown in Tennessee- Tom E. Curran says the offense could break out Sunday like they did in last year’s season opener in Miami when Brady threw for 517 in the Patriots’ 38-24 win.

In defense of needing a strong Patriots defense- Ron Borges says having a strong defense is still important in the league today, it isn’t all about the offense.

Young, talented defense critical to getting Patriots over the hump- Jeff Howe looks at the young defense and how it has changed over the years under Belichick.

Filed Under: Morning Links
  • bsmfan

    This was brought up on a few shows: “What is the fascination with John Farrell?”

    This reminds me of going back about the last 5-7 years, but not really the last two, when Bill Cowher was #1 on every coaching job short list. Coach on the hotseat? Bring up Cowher’s name. He became this sexy pick by the media. It wasn’t just friends of his either, but, finally, someone asked, why? He had only won once but otherwise was almost like the “Peyton Manning” of coaches. Now? I think he knows its best he stays at CBS and does TV.

    The same with Bill James..

    “. . . WE NEED MORE BILL JAMES!

    Wow. Swell idea. Why not bring back Joe Kerrigan, Carl Everett, and Harry Frazee’s great-grandson, Max Frazee? Maybe we can round up Rick Pitino, Pete Carroll, Roger Clemens, Antoine Walker, Dave Lewis, Acie Earl, and Albert Haynes­worth while we’re at it.”

    CHB addresses it in his column today. A lost organization tries to bring back it’s glory days by .. literally bringing them back in a time machine. It never works. I get the impression that the response to everything is “We have people perceived as smart people running the place.” Why do we keep getting told that these are the most brilliant/smart people?

    • Rick Mc

      That’s some great logic by Shank. The team has moved away from a disciplined stats approach to complement scouting, which has caused some bad signings. Dan compares trying to go back in that direction with all the failures in Boston sports. Dan just likes the sound of those words and knowing that it tweaks fans. Die you miserable prick.

      More Bill James is needed. Who do you think helped find all those bargains in 2003-2004? And I am pretty sure that James was against Lackey and Crawford signings. Lackey’s declining K rate and Crawford’s low OBP were pretty simple ways to look at them statistically and be doubtful.

      • Rick Mc

        “stats approach that complements scouting.” Just poorly written all around.

        Going back to Bill James is not going back to a failure. When his influence was at its peak, the team built two WS winners.

        • dan

          Curt Shilling and Beckett deals had more to do with those 2 titles than anything that weirdo James had done.

        • Rick Mc

          A huge part of the 2003-2004 team was all the bit parts that the team accumulated. Walker/Bellhorn, Mueller, Ortiz, Arroyo, and all the arms they picked up to make the back of their bullpen lights out in the 2003 playoffs. If Grady could have used them right, they would have been in the WS a year earlier.

          Why is he a weirdo? And I just don’t understand the logic of it’s a mistake after a few years of disappointment to look back to what helped the team win two WS.

        • dan

          Why is he a weirdo?
          I guess you missed that interview he did when in defending Sandusky he claimed that it was perfectly normal for grown men to shower with little boys…definitely gave off a creepo vibe. He might be a stats wiz but I would never let him babysit.

        • whitey b

          Why do you NEED someone to babysit you? Are you some kind of freak or what?

        • HomerGreenz

          It is perfectly normal and not at all unhealthy, if the adult males aren’t pedophiles.

  • dan

    I don’t understand the fascination with Farrell.
    There are plenty of qualified…AVAILABLE mangers out there who would come here.
    For some reason the media around here has made Farrell out to be the baseball version of Belichick.
    Even though he has been a colossal failure in Toronto record and from all reports up there…strategically on the field…the “braintrust” is going to send prospects to Toronto just because they hoping that another manager will some how wave a magic wand and make what is a horribly bad situation here magically better.
    This is if it goes down will end up being another stupid move in now what is becoming a string of one bad move after another with this team. The early 90′s have returned.

    • Winning_Again

      I agree in most regards. I have never understood the fascination with pitching coaches as managers in general. To me they never seem to work out too well. The formula seems a solid manager is usually a position player that then employs a guy that knows pitching, so he sticks with his known area of expertise.

      Bud Black, Leo Mazzone, Joe Kerrigan, Larry Rothschild.

      • http://twitter.com/junoyeopTV Joon Lee

        Leo Mazzone was never a manager.

      • whitey b

        Bud Black was 2010 NL Manager of the Year. Not his fault the Padres keep trading their best players.

  • latetodinner

    The fascination with John Farrell tells me that this ownership truly has not learned one lesson from this year’s fiasco. They need new blood who to paraphrase Dustin Pedroia “Does NOT do things like that around here”. They need a new direction with leadership backed by ownership. They need to give the GM permission to be the GM and not have him beholden to the marketing arm and lack of baseball knowledge that is Larry Lucchino nor should he be hamstrung by a SABRMatrican like Bill James. instead he needs a clear vision along with the tools and resources to implement it. If ownership does not trust Cherington with the baseball operations then find someone they do trust. The drama, sniping, lack of preparation and horrendous PR needs to stop. John Farrell and his oversized ego coupled with his lack of success in Toronto is the absolute last guy this team needs. What they need is someone like Tony Pena, however I doubt they will ever look at him. So I fear next year will be the same as this.

    • APimpNamedDaveR

      How can they learn when they believe they’ve done nothing wrong? After all, last year was all the fault of Terry Francona (whisperwhisperwhisperPILLPOPPER) and the Lackey/Beckett/Lester Axis (whisperwhisperwhisperCHICKENANDBEER), whereas this year was mainly the fault of malcontents like Youkilis (whisperwhisperwhisperBADATTITUDE) and Gonzales (whisperwhisperwhisperTEXTMESSAGER). And let’s not forget the culpability of Theo Epstein (whisperwhisperwhisperOVERRATEDBADCONTRACTBOY).

      It’s always someone else’s issue, isn’t it, Larry, Tom, and John?

      • bsmfan

        The sad thing is that they’re doing this on the other side of the pond with Liverpool. Henry blamed the “mistakes” of the franchise (Crawford/Gonzalez=Carroll/Adam/Downing/Henderson) on the “previous owners”

      • latetodinner

        How will Dan Duquette winning Executive of the Year go over up here? I wonder if anyone will ask about it.

    • dan

      Tony Pena is a natural fit here so I fully expect the “braintrust” to do the exact opposite and send De La Rosa and Allan Webster to Toronto for the chosen one.

      • latetodinner

        As perfect as I think Pena is, he has off field baggage that I am not sure this braintrust will accept. Still he would be infinitely better than Farrell…however his name is not going to come up. The idea they are going to trade prospects for a coach shows that they do not have a new plan. There is no way Farrell is Cheringtons top choice. These rumors have to be coming from higher up. As such, this is another dumb decision.

        • bsmfan

          So far, unless the Sox could lure a heavy hitter like.. I don’t know.. Bruce Bochy? Some big that is not too old but would never leave, it appears that Farrell is the man of lease resistance around here, no?

          However, would it make you (or anyone) as a fan happier if they came out and said:

          1.) We’re letting our GM pick our next manager.
          2.) “We” (which implies Cherington is “on-board”) are doing everything we can to get John Farrell.

          Something tells me I want to hear #1 but we’ll hear more of #2.

      • whitey b

        Pena is a nutcase. He’s Ozzie Gullien meets Bobby V. He’s about two fingers away from being here with me in the pen. Pass.

    • APimpNamedDaveR

      As an aside, I think the knock on Pena is that he’s not the greatest in-game strategist, and isn’t enamored of statistical analysis. He’s more of an old school “hunch” type guy. Great, great, GREAT people skills, though.

      • latetodinner

        The knock on Pena is he does not respect women. No way to tell how good an in game strategist he was when he was managing KC.

    • whitey b

      What makes you think Larry Lucchino lacks baseball knowledge? He’s worked in the industry for 25 years. I wouldn’t pick some rookie lawyer to represent me.

      Btw, didn’t the Red Sox win two World Series doing things their way? Where the problems started when the Red Sox stopped using the data to drive decisions, and instead started making decisions, then building the case to defend the choice they made.

      • latetodinner

        1) I think Larry is excellent at the non baseball team operations of running a team…stadium, marketing. tv rights, vendors logistics etc. I don’t think he knows what he is doing when it comes to putting together a roster or hiring coaches.
        2) The Sox won 2 WS rings because Theo had enough clout to move Larry out of Baseball ops but not enough clout or willingness to completely ignore the Sabr guys. After 2008 both things changed…Larry got more involved and the Sabr guys were sidelined more because the TV show needed to be first and foremost. Depending on who you listen to it was either Theo making really bad decisions, the entire group making really bad decisions as a braintrust, or Larry making bad decisions. To be honest I don’t really care who was at fault. What I do care about is how poorly the decisions that were made have been presented to the public, defended in public and then when they turn out to be poor how they have or have not been corrected. Larry has been the one who is supposed to be in charge of damage control and that has been a disaster. Baseball like all sports is all about what have you done for me lately. The fact that the Sox won championships doing things one way 5 years ago is irrelevant. The issue is what are they doing now and how is it affecting the product on the field and the fans enjoyment of the product.

        • whitey b

          “I don’t
          think he knows what he is doing when it comes to putting together a
          roster or hiring coaches.”
          What facts do you have to form that opinion? Where has it been identified what, if anything, he has done in that regard?

          “The Sox won 2 WS rings because Theo had
          enough clout to move Larry out of Baseball ops but not enough clout or
          willingness to completely ignore the Sabr guys.”

          Epstein IS a sabr guy. His endorsement is on the cover of Baseball Prospectus annual. What seems clear is that Theo STOPPED listening to the sabr guys. Moreover, while Theo was in charge for Ring 2, if memory serves he quit in a huff after Ring 1 because LL was too involved. How could Theo have enough clout to push a minority owner aside, but not enough clout to push aside the hired guns?
          ————————
          Success is not irrelevant. Success is proof of concept. No bad team has ever won a WS.

        • latetodinner

          Let’s make sure we are clear on a few things.

          1) Larry has no ownership stake in the team. He is an employee. One of his scams has always been making people think he a minority owner. In fact he put up no money and is not part of the ownership team. He is however President of Baseball operations and considered a member of Sr. management.
          2) Theo hired Franconia and got lucky. Honestly who thought that the guy whose greatest claim to fame prior to being skipper of the Red Sox was a 14 month stint managing Michael Jordan in AA ball. He was a disaster in Philly. Having said that he worked out for 5 years here until he “checked out” and the inmates took over the asylum.
          3) My evidence that Larry sucks is this past year. It is clear that Bobby V was his choice and a lot of us knew from the beginning this was a disaster in the waiting. The key point to me was forcing a pitching coach on the manager rather than letting the manager hire his own staff. John Henry went on 98.5 and said all baseball decisions end with Larry. That was a baseball decision and it sucked.
          4) Why did Theo stop listening to the SABR guys? That is the question we all want answered. What pressures were there on Theo to pack the TV show with star power? Did it come from Tom Warner directly or through LL. Remember, according to John Henry the buck stopped with Larry, so that I do not think it is far fetched that player acquisition decisions were not made according to the principles the baseball ops SABR guys followed…perhaps that is why Theo is not in Chicago.
          5) Why did the team win 2 rings. An argument can be made the best decisions in the 2007 offseason occurred when Theo was a Pearl Jam groupie. Likewise he rightfully deserves credit for trading away Nomar and getting Schilling and Foulke. But the rest of the team belonged to decisions made by this years Exec of the year Dan Duquette.
          Whitey, I usually think your posts have merit. For the life of me I am trying to figure out why you are willing to defend Lucchino when it is clear he is the problem.

        • whitey b

          If Lucchino doesn’t own a share of the Red Sox, someone better tell him and the rest of the media. Oh, and the Red Sox themselves: http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/bos/history/owners.jsp

          The hiring of Francona was a process. The process was put in place and followed. The media skewered the decision. The media, as usual, were wrong. Obviously LL had a part in that process. And just as obviously, LL was the one responsible for bringing Theo to Boston.

          Like many, you put way too much emphasis on the Nomar trade (which probably didn’t matter much in the scheme of 2004; it’s not like Cabrera or Minky set the world on fire; with OC, we actually lost 40 points of OBP vs. what Nomar did that season), and not enough on all the role players (Millar, Mueller, et al) that Theo brought in and won with. And there’s no way LL didn’t sign off on the trade for Beckett and Lowell.

          Theo did a fabulous job here. But so has LL. It’s clear the management has gotten somewhat away from the principles that made the team successful. But it’s also clear that they’ve hit a streak of really bad luck. Management can only be blamed for a record season of injuries if management decided to hire a bunch of players with long track records of getting hurt. Crawford had played less than 150 games just once before he got here. Ellsbury gets hurt in a freak accident. Youk was never right, and Middlebrooks goes down. The entire starting pitching staff went on the DL. Most of the bullpen did, too. So naturally, everyone overreacts and looks for someone to blame. They did the same thing when I bolted town; I became a scapegoat. It’s just so much second-guessing.

  • Lou From Accounting

    It all starts at the top. Sell the team.

  • bsmfan

    Looks like Scal is coming back:

    @WojYahooNBA Brian Scalabrine has turned down coaching job with Bulls and will call games for Comcast Sports New England this season, he tells Y! Sports.

    https://twitter.com/WojYahooNBA/status/243749435631341568

    @RealGM Brian Scalabrine Chooses TV Gig With Celtics Over Coaching Position With Bulls — http://tinyurl.com/cdxzmrt

    • Frank

      3 Man weave in studio or are they putting Tommy out to pasture? Too bad they couldn’t get rid of Tanguay instead.

      • bsmfan

        Chad Finn seems to be the man on top of the story. I don’t know if Bruce already tweeted or posted this:

        Touching All The Bases: Scalabrine to join CSNNE Celtics coverage – http://bo.st/Oe6tVb

  • Rick Mc

    Where do people get the idea that Bill James is what’s wrong? Lackey and Crawford are not signals that James is being listened to. By all accounts he was being listened to in the early days when the team picked up bargains and Schilling and Faulke. Specifically, what is he now doing wrong?

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